Generation Y breeds a new kind of woman
October 22, 2007 | By Rebecca Thorman |This post is an opening argument to the question, “Do women need men and/or children in order to be fulfilled?” Check out the opposing viewpoint from Justin Sanders here. This post was also published at Damsels in Success.
Update: This post was also published at Huffington Post.
Women need men. Just not like we used to.
While career guru Penelope Trunk insists that we will find deeper fulfillment from relationships over work, others like Hannah Seligson wonder why we can’t talk about “young women and careers without talking about the hunt for a husband?”
Generation Y women don’t relate to either. We don’t live container lives, with work and family and play muffled under air-tight lids. Our life bleeds together, and instead of a singular goal of family or career, we lead our lives as a continuum, family and career ebbing and flowing.
The reality of young women’s lives today is that we want it all, despite the warnings. While coming of age during 9/11 reinforced that family is deeply important to us, we were also raised to believe we could do and be anything, especially equal to men professionally.
It’s not about prioritizing one over the other, nor is there a single answer that works for everyone; there are extremes at either end. What remains consistent in women, however, is their sense of increasing independence.
Whether we check off men, children, career, or all of the above, the fact is that we have a choice, and what fulfills and limits us is not created by society and media, but increasingly our own desires.
As a result, our roles are changing. Women are becoming the leaders, and men the supporters. Even in relationships where children are the priority, and the woman chooses or is able to stay at home, women take on the dominant role, commanding a deeper respect than any time in history.
Many view the shifting roles as threatening the very basis of our biology. But it isn’t. It is simply uprooting the traditional western viewpoint.
Indeed, while spouses and children still rank as a source of fulfillment for women above careers, one’s personal fulfillment is increasingly not just augmented by, but necessitated by professional fulfillment as well.
Bored with motherhood and marriage, we savor the challenge of work. Michelle Obama said in a recent interview, “I love losing myself in a set of problems that have nothing to do with my husband and children. Once you’ve tasted that, it’s hard to walk away.”
Women don’t need men or children for fulfillment. They might get on okay with a cat, or their career, or another woman. But really, Generation Y doesn’t need much. We’ve been coddled and spoiled, and have long surpassed what we might need, and are instead creating what we want.
And what we want is to define a new kind of woman, a “compassionate alpha.”
The Generation Y woman has leadership and strength, and promotes community and empathy. We don’t dismiss motherhood, but embrace our strengths and use those to change the workplace, reaping from it a greater sense of fulfillment than ever before.
It is not a coincidence that at a time when power-hungry hierarchies are being broken down, women are leading and infiltrating the workplace. It is our skills and talents that have created such an influential shift.
Generation Y women are high-achievers, shrewd, well-dressed, and possess an emotional intelligence that far surpasses our male counterparts. We don’t rule by insecurities or fear, but by knowing ourselves well, and seeking connection with others.
In short, we’re women. We strive to be who we are, in our sexual identities, and in how we construct our personal and professional lives. We acknowledge our own complexities.
Our personal and professional lives are blurred more than ever before, and a woman’s strength in today’s society is the fact that we are true to ourselves — more so than any other generation — because past generations fought for our right to do so.
There is no better evidence of the giant lie that is feminism than this truism -
In EVERY other context of life, work is thought of as a means to an end, something you have to do, but don’t necessarily want to do, a chore, etc. Think of all those derogatory references to bosses, movies like Office Space that mock the workplace and the like.
Feminism, in contrast, has convinced guillible women that work is the sole path to liberation and fulfillment.
What amazes me is that no matter how much time goes by and how long it is proven that work isn’t the end all be all, feminists keep convincing themselves the problem is everyone else but them, whining at 35 years old about not being able to find a good man.
Then they write all this dribble about “choice” (why do liberals package everything in the language of “choice”, “opportunity”, “access”?) to rationalize their pathetic lives.
When I was a lawyer at a big law firm, all those feminist “successful” lawyers were straight up bitches. I knew then as a young lawyer that I never wanted to grow up to be one of them. Those women were outright MEAN to other women. Quite vicious actually.
Because they never had children or neglected the ones they popped out between depositions and court appearances, they had no idea what it was to nurture, to teach, to be compassionate. It was the men who were more nurturing and more likely to be our mentors.
For the first time in my career, I work in a department that is all female and, as far as mentoring goes, it is nonexistent. These women do not mentor, they don’t cut slack for new mothers to have flexible hours (”because if we give it to one, we have to give it to all”), etc.
It’s like a giant sorority house of bitchy, gossipy Cosmo-reading buffoons who sit around lamenting about how they are sick of eating out and how tough it is to find a good man, desperate to be fixed up with anyone. And we’re entertainment lawyers, supposed to be all glamorous and hot to trot. LOL!!! What a joke.
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
Rebecca,
Here ’s something to think about when we think about women who want to be alphas and “have it all”.
There’s a recent book out called “Alpha Male Syndrome.” I happened to have asked why it’s male, per se, and not all alphas. It turns out that the author’s premise is that the alphas are only male. Women alphas are so womanly about their alphaness that they can’t be covered in the same book.
So I think that the women alphas have probably been compassionate alphas forever.
Penelope
Comment by Penelope Trunk — October 22, 2007 #
@ Dina - Feminism can take it too far and regal us of stories of what work can do for us. That’s why young women today are realizing that they can pursue what makes them happy, whatever it may be.
Not all women have this luxury. Some women have to work and have families, some women have to work and not have families, some have families and can’t work and so on. I understand that.
It is also true that many women are not nice to each other. I am going to venture to say that this is more of Generation X mentality rather than Generation Y.
I make an extra effort to be nice to other women, because the smallest things can seem offensive to each other. Women are highly competitive against each other, when we should be helping each other along the way.
In terms of work being a chore for everyone, except for women work somehow becomes an absolution, I also think that for Generation Y this changes. We find meaningful work and so it provides us fulfillment.
Those are my thoughts at the moment. Thank you for making me think and for your honest response.
@ Penelope Trunk - I think in a way that is true, but many women have perpetuated being an alpha female in a way that is not so nice, as in Dina’s examples above. Many of the Generation Y women I know are less abrasive, and more inclusive to those around them. I got the idea for the term “compassionate alphas” from this article that I read — it talks about elephants and how elephant society is a matriarchy, and how that works. Really interesting.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 22, 2007 #
Must say I agree with Dina on this one. The reason an author would write a book on alpha males is b/c it is truly difficult for a woman to be an alpha. Attractive women have an easier time getting to a higher position than unattractive women; however, they are then assumed to only have achieved their rank b/c of their looks. And then they are undercut by other women.
Rebecca, I would ask you, as a leader of a professional group who happens to be attractive, have you had more trouble from women or from men in your ascent to your position?
I think I can guess your answer, and I think that most of your naysayers (and the naysayers of this blog, I might add) are “Gen Y” women. So I think the comment that the pettiness that plagues the relationships between women in professional settings is more common to “Gen X” clearly doesn’t hold water. I think it’s the inability of women to support and respect each other that leads to a lack of female alphas.
Comment by Johannes — October 22, 2007 #
@ Johannes - I agree it means something different to be an alpha female than it does to be an alpha male, and while there has not been a prevalence of such women in the past, young women are creating this reality now.
Thanks for saying I’m attractive!
Being attractive is certainly a double-edged sword, but the difficulties that I have encountered from being somewhat attractive don’t seem rightfully substantial to comment on.
I have experienced more difficulties from women simply because while men disagree with me just as often, women know exactly what to say to make it really hurt. Regardless, my “naysayers” are generally not my peers, but tend to be in the Gen X range (30+ years old). Women who are closer to my age are more apt to be open and nicer, provided we show mutual respect.
A true compassionate alpha female is able to support and respect other women. I think that’s a big part of what defines her. What has been thought of as an alpha woman in the past has not done this, but I hope that my generation is the one to change that.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 22, 2007 #
Rebecca,
I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I think reducing this entire discussion to “choice” misses the point.
We’re not talking about a fast food restaurant with 100 choices of toppings for pizza. We’re talking about what fulfills people. At the foundation of fulfillment is what you value. If you value money, then maybe work is fulfilling. But if you value family and human relationships, work will be a huge impediment to your fulfillment. I don’t need 10,000 choices if I have a clear sense of what I value.
Ask anyone who has cable tv about the utility of 500+ “choices” for what to watch. Does that mean all the choices are equal? Does that mean any of those “choices” will be appealing?
Isn’t that the sales pitch of DirecTV and all the cable companies - “more choice”, “more options”, blah, blah, blah? Somewhere in the fine print, maybe one day they will be honest and tell you that all the choices and options are crap. Isn’t it sad that all feminism has to offer women is a cable operator ad?
The problem with feminism and all this hooha nonsense about “choice” is that it has made the availability of choice an end in itself. Rather than provide values to people, rather than provide guidance and wisdom, women are convinced that having 10,000 choices in shoes is fulfilling. One of the lawyers I work with can spend an entire lunch talking about the latest Sex And The City episode and which shoes whatever bimbo in that show just had to have. By the time I escape from her moronic clutches, I have to go do logic puzzles just to recover the IQ points lost during the exchange. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”. It’s pathetic.
Perhaps it’s time for women to re-define their ideas of success.
I work with plenty of female entertainment executives who, notwithstanding their million dollar paychecks, are mean and bitter. One pretty hgih level executive is so pathetically desperate for a man that she asks everyone to fix her up. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”. I’ll take my husband over her paycheck ANY DAY.
What we have is Generation Y of women who have ZERO values. ZERO guidance. They are unanchored to anything, they know deep down they are miserable, but can’t manage to escape from the feminist prison they have built in their own heads.
They don’t know how to relate to men, neuter any man who comes close and then wonder why the $100+K they make each year doesn’t satisfy that deep hunger for companionship that gnaws deep down. They sit at home alone each night at work eating cereal for dinner, watching Desperate Housewives, hoping that this week’s therapy session will be the breakthrough. I don’t know about you, but I don’t define that as “success”.
And I’m not making up this stuff. I’ve worked with this composite character of a “successful” woman since I graduated from law school eight years ago. Every happy, truly fulfilled woman I’ve met has a good husband and wonderful children who she makes her top priority.
Sure, these poor spinsters have plenty of “choices” but, unfortunately, have absolutely no sense of values or wisdom to guide them in making those choices. Then they go on a show like The Bachelor and cry because their “eggs are rotting”.
Generation Y elicits nothing but pity from me.
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
“women know exactly what to say to make it really hurt.”
Is this the “emotional intelligence that far surpasses our male counterparts” that you speak of? Because it is this kind of backstabbling and pettiness that is decidedly un-alpha.
And would an alpha male ever list “being well-dressed and sexy” as his characteristics? Or sign off “Ruthlessly handsome?” No, rather it is the alpha male’s indifference to the normal pettiness, an ability to rise above the fray and treat people compassionately without allowing emotionality to dictate his actions that define’s his alpha status. And that is what makes him sexy. Until women figure out that the alpha-ness is what is sexy, and that sexiness cannot lead to real alpha status, they will continue to be behind the 8-ball.
Comment by Johannes — October 22, 2007 #
Well said Johannes.
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
@ Dina - This is kind of my point. I too believe just chasing after work is unhealthy and will not provide complete fulfillment. But for the majority of women, neither will having a family. And however difficult finding the happy medium is, I think that the Gen-Y woman is up for the challenge. And while I hate to pick on Gen-X, it also sounds to me as if you are talking about women who are older and more established in their careers. Many Gen-Y women have not gotten to that point, and while their outcome may be similar, my hope is that we can be nice to each other and prioritize whatever our values may be.
I don’t define success at all in the examples that you illustrate and they do not represent those in my generation. I am a successful woman at a young age, but I am careful to see that that will not be the only source of my happiness.
@ Johannes - I respectfully disagree. While you baited me into saying that some women are catty, which is true, not every woman is that way. I have tons of supportive women that I know as well.
And an alpha male is actually usually described as having “physical prowess, high achievement, bullying and sexual attraction… someone who bends others to his will.” That has always been part of the package.
I consider what I describe as an alpha female to rise above the alpha male. We’re not perfect yet, no. I get that. But that’s the opportunity Generation Y women have. We have the opportunity to use what is decidedly a womanly characteristic - our emotionality - to our advantage, in both our professional and personal lives.
We also have many other characteristics and strengths that don’t have to define us one way or the other. Certain women find fulfillment in one or the other, but many young women today are finding it in both.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 22, 2007 #
I hope your optimism is founded but, from what I see of the Generation Y women coming up, they’re even worse off than Generation X.
First, they have few, if any, role models of women who actually prioritized family over work. The majority of their role models are women who didn’t have children or, if they did, left them to be raised by nannies.
Second, men of Generation Y are a bunch of fairies who might as well have been castrated at birth. The feminist, man-hating agenda of the past 30 years has produced a generation of make-up wearing, whiney, metro-sexual, pathetic eunuchs. What exactly will the Generation Y woman have left to marry once the homosexuals finish off the job and make these men confused about whether they are even hereto?
Finally, many of the Generation Y women are the product of the generation of women to whom I refer in my examples. Thus, they grew up in divorced households or in households where mom put children second to her selfish “desires”. From whom do you suppose these young women are going to learn the happy balance?
And, as for the idea of the happy balance, it doesn’t exist. Yet another lie of feminism. Trying to be a mother and a full-time employee is like trying to be a full-time lawyer and a full-time doctor. You would look at someone like she had lost her damn mind if she suggested she could balance being in court during the day and doing surgery at night.
That is a recipe for disaster.
This idea of the happy balance is another rationalization for immature women who can’t or won’t made adult choices. Rather than make choices, as wise and mature people do, they act like children and insist on having everything. They never succeed, however (no matter how many therapists say so) and, instead, half-ass two things.
Then they wonder why their boys are making bombs in the garage and why their daughters end up in Girls Gone Wild videos. “Gosh, I got them the best private schools and nannies money could buy.”
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
First, let me say thanks for debating these important issues and thanks to all your readers for reading!
One thing that perplexes me is why 9-11 was the galvanizing force that made many Americans, for the very first time, feel that family was important. It shouldn’t take a national tragedy for us to realize the importance of love in our lives. Family is all we’ve got, and we’ve got to fight to keep it together, through the good and the bad. Your co-workers probably won’t even show up to your funeral.
I have a very demanding “career,” but my family will always be my priority; I can’t bounce back and forth. “You can’t worship two gods.”
It is without question that the media has an enormous influence on all of us, men and women.
“Generation Y” women do not need more hours at the office; they need real, masculine men and the love of children.
Comment by Justin (Big J from TheStateOf) — October 22, 2007 #
Women Are Now The Leaders …
With men in the subordinate role. Latest pep talk from The Princess: Gen Y Breeds New Woman “Women take on the dominant role, commanding a deeper respect than any time in history.” “Women don’t need men or children for fulfillment. They might get …
Trackback by Recruiting Bloggers.com — October 22, 2007 #
I do not think there is a clear cut answer on this one. I think a lot depends on being honest with yourself on what you want (rather than succombing to whatever mixed message society is sending us about what our role should be), regardless of your gender. I’m a Gen X woman. I have a 10 year old and a great career. I was married; I was miserable. I left with no regrets. Marriage isn’t the big driver in my life, but I have a Gen Y boyfriend and we make each other wildly happy. Balancing motherhood and career on my own has not been easy. I went through some rough years and a lot of heartache, especially because I was a little behind on the career ladder having taken 3years off to stay home with the child. That cost me a lot financially, but I feel it was a good choice for me and the little guy in the long run. I’ve had women as greatest mentors and the most awful detractors. I’ve had men as my champions and men that snickered and said i slept my way to where ever I was or underestimated my intelligence and ability. All that said, where I am at now as a woman in my 30s: My son is my A-number one priority. I love my career and I am finally at a point I can enjoy going to work; the dues I paid are paying off. I would be happy to get married again, but won’t die if I don’t. I have surrounded myself with great friends and family and as long I have that net the tightrope I walk in life doesn’t feel so scary.
Comment by CJ — October 22, 2007 #
Such a transparent attempt to up your hit count, Rebecca (smiley), I commend you on it.
Women need fulfillment any place they can find it. Marriage and children is just the typical prescription. It gets a little drilled into you.
There are plenty of other ways to get there. Fulfillment generally comes from inside.
Babies are cute, but so are puppies.
Babies you can’t eat when they stop looking so cute.
Comment by Nick Mortensen — October 22, 2007 #
Not to sidetrack the comment stream, but @Nick, You eat puppies???
Comment by Brad — October 22, 2007 #
I enjoy visiting your site Rebecca! You have a wonderful writing style, filled with energy, creativity and imagination. I agree with your perspective about the new generation of women. Today’s woman can and should have it all.
By that I mean that she should never feel like a second-class citizen. I personally know women who are loving moms, caring wives and successful entrepreneurs. I do believe though, that achieving a satisfying quality of life balance is much more difficult as an employee in a corporate environment. As with men, careers in corporate America often strain or destroy personal relationships.
Comment by Daniel Sitter, Idea Seller — October 22, 2007 #
@ Justin - I think it depends on the individual woman’s values on whether or not they need more work or more family. In many cases, a woman who has a career will be a better mother because of it.
@ CJ- thanks for sharing your story! You’ve certainly illustrated what I hope came across in my post - that we all need to make these decisions on our own, and it’s great that we are increasingly able to do that.
@ Nick- Transparent AND valuable is what you meant to say, right? ; ). I completely agree that fulfillment comes from inside - that’s a great line.
@ Brad - I wouldn’t be surprised… haha.
@ Daniel - Thank you for kind comments. Corporate America is probably more difficult especially the higher you climb the ladder. But as women gain more leadership, we define new rules.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 22, 2007 #
“I too believe just chasing after work is unhealthy and will not provide complete fulfillment. But for the majority of women, neither will having a family.”
Hello Rebecca. Thank you for hosting such an interesting exchange.
Your statement regarding work, fulfillment and family made me think. You suggest the majority of women will not find fulfillment in family.
I wonder, what could possibly be more fulfilling than reproducing oneself?
When I consider fulfillment, I think of purpose. Isn’t anyone whose body produces an egg every month, “purposed” to be a mother?
Could becoming a Circuit Court judge or a movie producer ever really substitute for that organic, natural and innate ‘purpose’?
-
Comment by Denmark Vesey — October 22, 2007 #
A useful quote about “choices”
“No women should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children,” said feminist founder Simone de Beauvoir. “Women should not have that choice, because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one” (Saturday Review, June 14, 1975)
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
More women are educated today and have careers, but they know there could be something else out there for them should they desire it. As young, educated, professional women, they do have more choices and possibilities in their lives than any previous generation. They really can “have it all”. And what I understand Rebecca is saying is that “all” is what each of them wants. No one way is “the only way”. And that says everyone is right. And what they want now can change and they can be fulfilled and successful in any other way their hearts and minds take them in 10 years, and 10 years after that, and throughout their lives. They will have resilience. They won’t be boxed-in or labeled or reliant on their husband’s for support. They won’t accept living in ways past generations of women did. They have choices. Some say it’s a choice to be happy with what you have. Generation Y doesn’t accept that. They are passionate about making a difference in their lives and their plan is not to let those who would accept less for themselves to bring them down. You can belittle choices until you don’t have any. Don’t always live in the present. Look back. Learn. History keeps us from making the same mistakes over and over. It’s there for you to realize how far women have come, and not to say this is far enough. Keep going! Anything is possible with vision.
Comment by Linda — October 22, 2007 #
They really can “have it all”. And what I understand Rebecca is saying is that “all” is what each of them wants.
That’s just wrong. No one on this earth can have it all, woman or not. Thinking one can have it all is infantile. Everyone is required to make choices and prioritize things. There is a name for those who refuse to do so -mental illness.
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
Justin, read it again: “While coming of age during 9/11 reinforced that family is deeply important to us, we were also raised to believe we could do and be anything, especially equal to men professionally.” Meaning on 9-11-2001, Generation Yers were still children. Also it showed all of us that we need to tell each other what everyone means to us. Constantly. We took each other for granted pre 9/11, especially family.
Dina, You can always find something written down somewhere to agree with your views. Some 1975 was another century. Women now make something like 73 cents of every dollar a man makes. In all these years we’ve only gained about 25% of pay equity in over 40 years. That’s not good enough.
Comment by Linda — October 22, 2007 #
Dina, I think that each of us can make our own determination as to what we want and what we define as “having it all”. Whether we have a career is required for many women just to support themselves and their families. Yes, everyone has to make choices and prioritize. That’s life. At work or at home, daily life grinds us down, but that doesn’t mean you can’t change it if you want something better. Rise above it.
Comment by Linda — October 22, 2007 #
Dina, You can always find something written down somewhere to agree with your views. Some 1975 was another century. Women now make something like 73 cents of every dollar a man makes. In all these years we’ve only gained about 25% of pay equity in over 40 years. That’s not good enough.”
I’ve been hearing varieties of that sound-bite / meme / propaganda for years.
While in college I had a variety of jobs. I was a waiter, I ran an athletes foot in the mall, I worked for a real estate developer I think I worked in Gap over a Christmas holiday.
Never did they pay me a dime more than they paid a girl for the same job.
Where is my 27% more pay than women get? I feel cheated. I want my damn money.
;-]
Seriously Linda, how is this mythical 73% calculated?
Comment by Denmark Vesey — October 22, 2007 #
Denmark, The Census Bureau has statistics about pay inequity. There are, of course, low paying jobs where men and women are paid the same, such as waitstaff where pay rates are advertised and known. I’m really talking about inequities in pay for jobs that aren’t so obvious. In business, salaried jobs are harder to shine a light on pay inequities, but the statistics still prove that women are paid less than men in the same areas. Don’t worry about that 27% you feel you were cheated out of; you weren’t. It’s all yours. It’s women who are being cheated.
Comment by Linda — October 22, 2007 #
Linda,
How are women being cheated when women are the majority of college grads, law school students, represented in increasing numbers in the upper echelons of corporations, etc., etc.?
Also, why is it that feminists are quick to define women as “individuals” when speaking of needs, wants, choosing to work or stay at home, but when speaking of victimhood, it becomes the Royal “We”? Which is it?
Comment by Dina — October 22, 2007 #
@ Denmark - While I do think that having a family is important, I don’t believe that all women are destined towards one “purpose” - to have babies. And there is no one purpose. My purpose on earth is not only to reproduce but to do so many wonderful things. If our sole purpose was to reproduce, do you really think society would have evolved to this point?
@ Linda- thank you for providing some positive comments! I love the phrase “rise above it.” Just great!
@ Dina - it’s because really everyone, not just women, but men too are individuals, but when people discriminate, they don’t take the time to know the individual. They see “woman” and make a judgment, based on that word, and not who the person is. That’s what discrimination is.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 22, 2007 #
Dina, Women are cheated because men still make more than women do. Women may slowly be increasing in numbers in higher paid positions, but they still make less money than men for doing it. That’s a proven fact. There’s been improvement over time, but we can’t stop now because that’s good enough. Men aren’t better than women; women aren’t better than men. Where pay equity is concerned, it should be equal.
A woman is an individual, but we are all the collective women. So, both.
Comment by Linda — October 22, 2007 #
I’m a lawyer and the firm I work for pays the women on my level exactly what they pay me. Blacks, Jews, latinos, women, gays, etc. are herded into a method of thinking of ourselves as “victims” which, in turn, causes us to segregate into ineffective lobby groups. In fact, we control our own destiny.
Comment by Big J — October 23, 2007 #
Fullfillment comes in many forms for many different people. A person’s first priority is survival - food, shelter, and clothing. After those needs are met, one can consider what is a higher level of fulfillment. I wonder at what point people realize contentment at whatever their level of “success”. I’m in the real estate profession and I’ve seen extremely “successful” agents that work 24/7 and are constantly on the phone. Those are also the one’s that tend to have high stress, have a high divorce rate, and eventually burnout. Then there are other “successful” agents that work 20-40 hours a week, make a decent living, and make it look effortless. I don’t think we should argue about women vs men, but instead start a discussion about improving the quality of life for both. Many of your posts talk about following your passion. If your passionate about your career, family, friends, spirituality, etc. I don’t think it’s possible to “have it all” at the level you write about. That seems like a nice ideal to strive for, but everything has a cost. To have a good relationship with your family costs “time” spent with them. To have a good career costs “time” spent investing in the tools you need to get ahead. I think it makes more sense to go 100% full on with wherever you are. When you’re at work “be there” 100%. When you’re with your family “be there” 100%. When we try to mix all this together to “have it all” we get sort of a half-hearted mixture of fulfillment. Just my thoughts…but I like your optimism.
Comment by Josh Lavik — October 24, 2007 #
For the people who rail about “equal pay” for women, I wonder if those women have the same amount of EXPERIENCE as their male counterparts. It’s one thing if Jack and Jill come out of the same college, same GPA, same field, and Jill is underpaid. It’s quite a bit different if Jack has worked for Firm A for 5 years, while Jill took that amount of time off to start a family, and then re-enters the work force. Jack has more experience in that same position, and should be compensated as such. Such scenarios could be contributing to the disparity in pay.
I look at it this way. For years, people have been upset that the men in men’s tennis were paid more than the women in the tournaments. Recently this was changed. What was lost in that “battle for equality” was that men play *5* sets per tennis match, while women play only *3*. Is that fair for men?
It’s getting more and more difficult for women to find husbands. Why? Well, the feminization of males is one aspect of it. But there’s an unspoken marriage strike taking place among men ages 24-35. Not saying that the majority of us feel this way (as I’m approaching my 7th year of marriage). But those men in my generation remember having the “Disneyland Dads” who we would see every other weekend. We remember that because a judge decided that it was “in the best interests of the children” to go with the mother (which happened in about 90% of divorces of the kids I went to school with), the fathers went from active participants in their children’s lives, to passive visitors. Many men in this age group have sworn off marriage.
With a lack of suitable mates, it’s no wonder that women are throwing themselves headfirst into work. Some find fulfillment. Some don’t.
Feminism hasn’t empowered you ladies. Hopefully you won’t leave your daughters to the same fate.
Comment by Eric Ogunbase — October 27, 2007 #
Geeze, where to start. You sound a bit like Kate Mulvey. That link sums it up pretty nicely.
At some point in time, hopefully before it’s too late, you’ll realize that all this career crap is just that. Parenting is a no joke job and not something you can do in your spare time. I”m sorry that you look down on being moms. It’s the one job the species can’t do without.
Like Eric said above, feminism has completely screwed you.
Comment by K T Cat — October 27, 2007 #
@ Big J - While I believe that we have the ability to lead our lives the way that we wish as well, the world doesn’t always agree with us.
@ Josh - That is perhaps an even more idealistic viewpoint than mine. Oftentimes people don’t have the choice to give 100% to family or to career. I agree that prioritizing what is important to you is a healthy way to go about life. But if what is important to me is both a family and a career, whose to say that I shouldn’t have both?
@ Eric - While you bring up a good point regarding experience, I think studies have proved that even when the experience is the same, women have been paid less.
I haven’t experienced the “marriage strike” that you speak of, so I can’t comment. But I think the idea that career fulfills some women and not others is right on. It’s about deciding what is right for you. In my case, I want it all.
@ K T Cat - I don’t think you read my post completely. I do not believe that parenting and family should be second rate. I just also find an extreme amount of fulfillment from my career. I have never said that I look down on being a mom. Quite the contrary, I explained that we are using our motherhood strengths to make the world a better place.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 27, 2007 #
we are using our motherhood strengths to make the world a better place
And that didn’t happen…when?
The Generation Y woman has leadership and strength, and promotes community and empathy. We don’t dismiss motherhood, but embrace our strengths and use those to change the workplace, reaping from it a greater sense of fulfillment than ever before.
What a load of self-important twaddle. Like the women of the 1920s or 1640s or 400 BC didn’t? Man, am I glad you came along. You are the pinnacle of evolution, proudly carrying on the banner of the women who struggled before you. You’ll do what no one else has done and achieve what no one else has achieved! You’ll find a way to fit a set of tasks that take 90 hours into only 40 hours each week and not turn out a lousy product. Go team!
Err, let me know how that last one goes, will you? It hasn’t worked so well to date. But I’m sure that by embracing your strengths, your generation will solve that particular problem.
Having lived a little bit longer than you, let me give you a tiny piece of advice. Get over yourself.
Comment by K T Cat — October 27, 2007 #
@ K T Cat - Again, I don’t dismiss the achievements of women before me (see last paragraph). It is a known fact that each generation improves upon the previous generations. It’s unlikely that any generation is going to solve all the world’s problems, and it’s quite wasteful to make such generalizations. But it doesn’t hurt to believe in ourselves. Gen Y is improving upon Gen X and the Boomer generation, and the generation after Gen-Y will lead a better life than mine.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 27, 2007 #
Been there, done that, Rebecca. And what it meant was kids in daycare til 5-5:30, getting home at 6 or 6:30, tired, frazzled, having to cook dinner, get baths, too exhausted for quality time with anybody, getting the work I brought home done after the kids were asleep - and my son never went to sleep before 1:30 am… what it meant when they got to school was all of the above but adding homework into the mix.
I quit, stayed home, life improved, the family’s success grew - I’ve never regretted it, and my kids have a deep appreciation of it. Getting to stay with them was a gift the likes of which you cannot imagine.
My son is now 22. It feels like we had him for about 2 weeks. It was 18 years. They fly by. And you will miss things the likes of which you cannot comprehend.
I believed as you - that it was expected that you “have it all” - and being good at what you do is cool, but what you’ll find is, something has to give, because you’ll end up not able to do anything well.
So the question is - who should raise your kids? You? Or the babysitter/daycare provider? May be an easy question to answer when they are little, but guess what - they can’t stay little and in daycare forever. Sooner or later, you gotta deal with ‘em.
The simple fact is, no one will take care of them or protect them or be an advocate for them but you. No one else cares. Nor should they.
I also advise people that as they kids get older, the time demands increase, not decrease. There are doctor’s appointments, and soccer games and driving for this or that - it turns out that you are not a very desirable employee because you always need time off for those things. I was the boss - and even with all my sympathy for thier plight, as I lived it also, I couldn’t have that kind of employee.
You sound young, and idealistic and on top of your game… leave some room for what reality may bring.
And good luck.
Comment by Rose — October 28, 2007 #
And one more thing - it is not a question of whether you need a man or kids to be fulfilled. Who cares?
It is a question of whether the kids need you. If you don’t understand that, don’t have any.
Comment by Rose — October 28, 2007 #
Rose, will you marry me?
Here’s another thing to think about, Rebecca. Your kids will have a room mom at school. While you run off to your career, another woman will be devoting her time to making sure your kids have a rich and fulfilling life at school. Your kids will have team moms, too. They will have girl scout and boy scout troop leaders, assuming they actually have any extracurricular activities with all your careering.
So just like all the women out there “having it all” right now, your career success will be built on the fact that other women decided not to take on the dominant role and instead decided to let their husbands do that while they provided the nurturing and love upon which civilization is built. Cool! That’s something to be proud of while you crow about how great you are.
Or not.
Comment by K T Cat — October 28, 2007 #
@ Rose - I know about this. My mother raised me as a single mother and worked extremely hard throughout my life. It wasn’t her choice to do both, but that’s what had to be done. I saw that it can work. And other people do care. My babysitter was our neighbor. She was fantastic and her family became part of our family. I feel blessed to have had so many people that cared about me. As the needs and wants of my generation evolve, the workplace will be forced to evolve with it.
Finally, there shouldn’t even be a question of whether the kids need you. Of course they do. But if I’m happy in my life, and am fulfilling my goals and dreams, my kids will be raised better as a result. For some, this is staying home. For some, this is career. For some, it is having it all. You can’t force one way on to people and say that it is the right way.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and good wishes.
@ K T Cat - I think that I addressed your concerns when I replied to Rose above.
Comment by Rebecca Thorman — October 28, 2007 #
You are correct. And I suspect you will make good choices as you go along. Just know that sometimes pulling back and simplifying is the greater achievment.
In many ways, your generation (and my kid’s, who are near your age, I suspect) is better than mine. But neither my generation or yours has been tested with the kind of difficulties those who came before us faced - from coming to America on sailing ships, and enduring hardships, to covered wagon treks across a nation, to the depression, World Wars and disasters - people have been tested and proven worthy - your new kind of woman was made possible by those people, and people like your Mom.
You’re on top of the world, and on top of your game it seems, in one of the best places in one of the best times that has ever existed - a very lucky person indeed. The future is bright, and I wish you luck. And thanks for your kind response. Ya coulda blasted me!
Comment by Rose — October 28, 2007 #
As Carol Burnett used to close her show with, “I’m so glad we had this time together…”
Word to the wise. There can’t be an “us” struggling for your rights without a “them” to struggle against. As one of the “them,” let me just tell you we’ve had it up to here with this junk. You might want to stop with this sexual comparison stuff while you’re, err, ahead.
By the way, thanks to your post and my thinking about it, I realized that the women where I work make the same $ as I do and travel about 1/10 as much. I take about 20 cross country trips a year. They do about 2. That sounds fair. Right.
Anyway, best of luck to you.
Comment by K T Cat — October 28, 2007 #
[…] Wait, what? What do you mean what gives me the right? I must admit that I didn’t have a good answer, even the third time around. To me, it’s like asking what gives you the right as a woman to work? […]
Pingback by Modite - What gives you the right to be a young leader — November 1, 2007 #
[…] Read when you come back, thirsty for more Prioritize your authenticity Generation Y breeds a new kind of woman 3 workplace weaknesses that are really Gen Y strengths Advice from top Executives, CEOs and Presidents 7 networking tips for Generation Y Posted to: Blogging | […]
Pingback by Modite - I’m featured in the New York Times! — November 5, 2007 #
Why is it that men can be competitive- in the work place, in the bar, on the field- but as soon as women become competitive, they are instantly classified as bitchy and catty? While I value other people’s opinions, it is hard not to be insulted by those with a little more life experience for just wanting to go out and try.
First of all, the choice argument still exists because it is accompanied by the need for power. And I mean that in its rawest form: women (and men equally) want power over their own lives. They don’t want to be dictated to by society, religion, or tradition. If you choose to make your family your central focal point, allowing it to be the main factor in your decision making, then you’ve chosen that as your path. Religion and work equally fall into this category (and whatever outside influences is factored in to your daily life decisions).
Claiming feminism to be a lie is a little silly. Then you could make that argument for whatever theories on life and society exist.
Last point, how will you know what fulfills you until you’ve experienced it? Jamming either idea– brute feminism vs. family-focused life (and everything in between)– down anyone’s throat simply denies them the opportunity to experience life as it comes. Sure, mistakes will be made but how will you know what it is you want without trying it all out first?
Comment by Cassidy — November 5, 2007 #
[…] At the time, I was grateful to hear that others were just as crazy as me, but as Belle and my sister amuse me with their updates on promise rings and wedding plans, I’m anxious for the whole “not having a life” thing to be over with. Because I do want it all. The family. The career. And everything in between. […]
Pingback by Modite - Life as a Gen Y leader - week eleven — November 14, 2007 #
Hi Dina,
From your comments you seem pretty bitter about where you are in life. Please don’t make asusmptions about women of another generation as what the world needs is inspiration and the advice to lead a better life.
I am a successful gen Y women completely happy with my life and know a lot more females in similar roles. Yes at times i have worked hard, i love my job and enjoy every minute of it, Its full of just enough challenges and i always ask for what i want and usually get it. While at times i might put in long hours family, friends, social life is important to me so my motto is work hard, play hard but in moderation.
You’ll find me globetrotting around the world, hitting the gym and meeting up with friends in exotic locations. I have just come back from working in Asia for four months, climbing mountains in the himalaya’s for three weeks and holiday romance in an exotic beach. I earn more than i can spend and i love my life.
If you focus on the negatives in life thats where your life will lead so think of all the things in your life thats amazing and makes you feel like your lucky to be alive.
Comment by Kanchi — November 26, 2007 #
[…] 12. And if you’re a feminist, you have better sex, which doesn’t matter because feminism has “completely screwed you.” […]
Pingback by Modite - 12 reasons why being a woman leader is challenging — December 12, 2007 #
I have to say that as a 25-year-old woman, the creative freedom and sense of accomplishment my career gives me is a truly wonderful feeling. Sure, there are a lot of people out there in dead-end jobs, but that just means they need a new job, not that they should bow out and have babies. I really believe that women need both love and a career, and there’s no reason why they can’t all do it!
Comment by Jade — March 6, 2008 #
[…] Generation Y women in particular are growing up believing they don’t have to worry about sexism. For instance, in college I certainly didn’t feel there were inequalities. […]
Pingback by Modite - Gen Y women – out of the workplace woods? — March 25, 2008 #
I think that it is great that women are doing so well. There is alot I have to say but I will try and summarize it into words. Women need to slow down and use their decision making powers to benefit all man. What I have noticed in the years is that women are abusing their power against men in particular. This has happened to me recently to the point that I have learned how to deviate from the negativity that women can bring with them. I understand that women usually state that they are simply looking at all angles. Well the reality is that most of the world was built by man. However, women defenitely put their part. Why do women act so courageous when they really are inferior in many occasions. Why not be yourselves and take the mask off. Deep down inside we know we can not live without you one way or another. If you are good to us then we typicaly are happy unless if we we are faking. If you are bad to us we can still put up with it but that is based on the man himself who thinks he may be benefiting from something but in reality is not and the couple is unhealthy as a result. Women now adays need to take 2 deep breaths and act logical listen to their hearts not become a follower of other women. Be yourself, be nice to people both men and women no need to be snotty all the time or just plain spiteful. I say this because all day at work I see women of all types just showing their weaknesses all day. number one ..evaluate yourself are you who you want to be? Are you were you want to be in life, family and career? Is the 9-5 and family life taking a wear on you? Chill out, go for a relaxing walk you deserve it. Treat yourself better and you will see the outcome. Anyhow, I absolutely love women, I just hate when they put up a false barrier or a shield not to get their feelings hurt right? Bring down the barrier and simply establish boundaries if necessary, no need to play dirty. O well she is playing dirty and getting away with it I might as well follow. Oh she does not like him so I do not either. Why judge a man when you do not even know who the hell the guy is. He could be the nicest guy you will ever meet on the planet. Down with guard American woman and let go, I promise when you do you will have everything you want and more…Learn to say yes more, accept people more, black, white asian, latino whomever. We are all humans and deserve to live well together. If the opposite happens the divorce rate is going to grow higher and women will never be happy therfore men will not either and this chain will never end…Do we really want to live like this, I hope not cause I would rather live in another country then one where people have multiple personality disorders and no kind of stable emotions for a man.
Enough said, I hope one day you women will le down the guard and welcome life again.
CGRZ
Comment by Chris — April 12, 2008 #
[…] Y women have both masculinity and feminity, developing as the best of both worlds. We balance the typically female feeling part of ourselves with the typically male thinking parts. […]
Pingback by Modite - Women will lead Generation Y – what will men do? — May 13, 2008 #
I’ve read the post, and all of the comments (and your responses) and and can’t help but be drawn to one conclusion. You don’t respect experience, yet strive for the respect (and trappings) that it offers. You will be well served not discount those that have “been there,” rather than broadcast the fact that you haven’t and argue that you “know better” becuase you are idealistic. I know this was written to stir controversy — most everyone gets that. The gender/generational debate is as old as the sand. What I’ve learned throught the years (I know it doesn’t count) is that you must pursuade people to give you what you want in this world and not tell them what you expect. You are not an “alpha female.” There’s no such thing — it belongs to men — like it or not. If you want to be identified as anything (e.g. “alpha”), you can’t distance yourself (e.g. women do it differently) from the very identity you seek to asssociate with (e.g. agressive alpha defines “me”- one that must be respected). Everyone “wants it all.” That is not a virtue.
You stumble to argue that there exists some kind of elite generation that has it figured out without having done it. That’s naivity. You fail to account for the realities of competing interests — both gender and generational. You are not entitled to respect because you want it. Indeed, you can’t have “greater fullfilment” than a prior generation — you haven’t done it yet (work, family balance, recognition, personal achievement, mature priorites etc.).
If your family is important to you — focus on it like it is. If your career is important, do the same. Don’t think you have a speacial skill to do both. You will sorely regret that you believed otherwise and achieved neither.
Good luck.
Comment by Cynthia — May 22, 2008 #
Well, that was rather emasculating. I don’t think these changes will favor one stereotype or the other, it just means more alternative methods will be acceptable. The Pie is getting large and we all will find a way to get a piece.
Comment by MattyFo — June 5, 2008 #
The problem with Gen Y is that they have opinions about everything. You are all just so excruciatingly fabulous that it is making the rest of us sick. Please stop talking for 5 minutes.
Comment by Suzanne — June 12, 2008 #
Comment by Suzanne — June 12, 2008 #
Ya I think they need to buy some books on the Great Depression, and WWII.
Comment by fred — August 14, 2008 #
Dina, you are a brilliant writer, philosopher and a born leader…. Gen Y girls… um sorry… Women.. take note!
Comment by Thom — August 16, 2008 #
[…] Y women have both masculinity and feminity, developing as the best of both worlds. We balance the typically female feeling part of ourselves with the typically male thinking parts. […]
Pingback by Women will lead Generation Y – what will men do? | Bizzy Women — September 7, 2008 #
The young gen Y guys need my podcast.
Comment by Tom Leykis — September 22, 2008 #
As we make our way in to the corner office and settle into the warmth of the leather chair, we immediately go to work. In a rather womanly fashion, we begin passing out our personal touches to each corner and shelf and taking our own time to commit to an organizational system and type our own labels. Our efficiency that works so well at home puts us ahead of the curve of discomfort in no time. With our new routines are established, the ideas and aspirations that lead us to this next level of success and opportunity take place on meeting agendas and the term success is suspended six inches above our head where it will continue to persuade our every next step. It always seems to surprise my colleagues that I not only am a great public speaker with exceptional ideas and the push to make them the forefront of a discussion, but that I can also operate the coffee machine and repair the quirky copier.
It is our innate senses that bandage and fill the small voids that are left for the maid to clean up by the men who have traditionally occupied the rungs of our name plates. Women have been held to the same standards in immediate generations with regard to standardized testing as well as college applications, forcing them to embrace the side of their brain that would have otherwise become dusty had traditional roles become our full time job.
I am never amazed that I am, in a days’ short time, that I am completely capable of waking up, getting dressed, looking great, taking care of my daughter, dropping her off at daycare, stopping for coffee, racing for the bus and making it in to work blazing emails from the moment I have one free hand and that is all before 8:30 a.m. There would be no excuse that I not be able to prepare dinner for my family or that I miss bath time, however, my former boss would have literally come to work naked if his wife did not pick up his dry cleaning. There is so much opportunity to push to the foreground and to remain there. It is not easy finding time for everything but the quality of time that a female dedicates to a project or task is never reduced by constraint, rather condensed to be more effective and productive. Fruitful labor is what we live for. Women have revolutionized the legacy of a great mother to become a great mother and at no expense to her career aspirations! There is so much work to be done and I am loving it!
Comment by Jessica W Alexander — October 21, 2008 #
Wow, brilliant post, but I disagree with Dina’s point that generation-y women have zero values!!! You’ve clearly emphasised that the values are different, and I agree.
What do you think of “Generation-Y princess Paris Hilton?”
Comment by Julie — November 29, 2008 #
Terrific model, Dina. I think you’re in for some surprises when it hits the road, though.
I’m also a single mother, 40 years old, one of the early beneficiaries of 2nd-wave feminism. I must tell you that if it weren’t for feminism, my kid and I would be, at this moment, screwed. I walked into and out of marriage with property, resume, advanced degree, job skills, and money skills. Result: House, good school, friends with serious resources. My kid’s in good shape and I’m able to do work largely of my choosing.
Some of your earlier posters seem to be confused as to what feminism was about. It was about power, plain and simple. Without power, none of the choices or aspirations you go on about exist. Because you leave out one important element in your shining Excelsior piece up there: men.
Please don’t kid yourself into believing that men of any generation are going to be content to watch you rocket ahead of them, and share delightedly in your success, and pitch in even-steven with the kids. They won’t. And it only gets worse as they get older, if they haven’t made their mark.
If you’re careful about this, and make your career before you make babies, you can do it all. Otherwise you’re going to wind up in silver-lining-land, living with your mother and blogging about _how much closer_ you all are now and what a blessing in disguise the wreck of your marriage, career, youth, etc were. How grateful you are for all the little things, how foolish you were before not to stop and notice them, how the things you cared for before can never be as important as folding those little shirts, and how, you know, even if you can’t afford the best lawyer, your kids will know you did all you could for them. And so on.
Just be careful, is what I’m saying. You exist today as an honorary man: a young, well-educated, single, childless woman. This is a status that can go away overnight. Just be aware of that.
Comment by amy — December 21, 2008 #
Oh. As for the original question: No.
It’s three years since I’ve been involved with a man — you know, beyond friendship & conversation. Occasionally I think, you know, gee, it’d sure be nice — and then I think about what the men are actually like. I’ve had a pretty good sample to review, and here’s my summary:
Pros:
1. Nice to sleep on
2. They tend to eat lots, so cooking is satisfying
3. They often bring money
4. Sex can be real nifty
5. Some of them are handy
6. May perform stupid acts of self-sacrifice if someone breaks in
Cons:
1. Pigs, usually, and they shed
2. Expect to be taken care of
3. Believe their work’s more important than mine
4. Sex is often less than nifty
5. Expect to be taken care of
6. Expect to be taken care of
7. Expect to be taken care of
8. Become depressed and turn into giant pains in ass
9. Will happily shovel work of maintaining social life onto nearest available woman
10. Blind to dirt, laundry Everest, pack of gypsies camped in backyard, third notice that utilities will be shut off
11. Not that funny, really
12. Often come with parents
13. Lazy bastards, mostly
14. “Men are children” turns out to be true
15. They get old before we do and want us to be nurses and — yep — take care of them, so that when they die we’re not just lonely but sick with exhaustion
So in the end — nope, can’t see them being worth the trouble. Fine and often fun to talk to, great to flirt with, some are fun in the sack. But. To live with, to share a life with? No, I’m thinking not.
Comment by amy — December 21, 2008 #
[…] alongside a prestigious career. The general Generation Y consensus seems to be that we can. Like here, although the comment section is particularly illuminating, although harsh. […]
Pingback by geniusopia » Blog Archive » Truths about modern motherhood, feminism, and having it all — April 28, 2009 #
Matriarchy will lead to disaster. Oh well, not really my problem. I’m going my own way.
MGTOW
Comment by MGTOW — June 9, 2009 #